Are German Cars Reliable? The Myth of “German Engineering”

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There are a lot of car stereotypes out there, like that Toyota builds abate appliances. While true on many fronts, the Japanese automaker does also make titillating sporty cars like the Scion FR-S, and Lexus LFA, both praised for their exhilarating rails, edgy styling and pulse-raising spectacle. But there’s another stereotype that needs to be dealt with.

Likely you’ve heard the phrase “German engineering” more than a few times in your life and there’s a popular misconception that it equals good reliability. German cars are well engineered, sometimes to be amazing spectacle machines and sometimes to be exceptionally high-tech (and often both) but, Porsche aside, German cars don’t have the best track record for reliability.

A REPUTATION EARNED

Part of the reason for the misconception about German engineering is that German automakers did, at one time, earn it. When Consumer Reports embarked its Long-Term Reliability Tests and Initial Quality Index tests way back in 1972, German brands like Volkswagen and Mercedes-Benz came out on top. The initial quality of even the lowly VW Beetle topped many domestic vehicles from Ford, Jeep, Pontiac and Mercury.

For a while afterwards, Mercedes and VW managed to stay near the top in reliability rankings. But their Japanese rivals weren’t sitting idly-by. In the 1980s and 90s the most reliable models ended up coming from Honda, Toyota, Acura, Infiniti and Lexus.

“Back then, the cars like the Beetle were pretty elementary. But then came stronger competition, the Japanese [automakers], especially Toyota and Honda got their problems per 100, down to a science,” Said Gabriel Shenhar, an automotive engineer at Consumer Reports.

A REPUTATION LOST

In the late ‘90s Mercedes had released the dismally unreliable M-Class SUV (left) and the brand’s initial quality scores have plummeted since. Other German brands had similar practices. Even tho’ they stayed at the forefront of fresh technology and engineering practices, their fresh gizmos were prone to failing.

“They’re quick to adapt fresh technologies but rely on suppliers that supply these technologies and in a lot of cases what we see is problems with the electrical systems, the entertainment systems and other interface,” said Schenhar

According to Consumer Reports, Mercedes boosted its reliability a bit in 2011, but is still inconsistent. The same can be said for Mercedes’ German competitors, Audi and BMW. In Consumer Reports last five annual reports, the last time these German brands have been above average in reliability was back in 2007. Since then, they’ve all slumped below the average in the industry.

Consumer Reports’ Long-Term Reliability test documents a car’s reliability over the course of three years, while the Initial Quality Index is based on consumer feedback from the very first few months of a fresh cars ownership.

Consumer Reports also has a report card that ranks automakers based on their average car score, reliability score and the percentage of recommended vehicles. The average score for these carmaker report cards over the past five years (when they commenced the report cards) of the German brands doesn’t crack 68/100, below the industry average and the competition from the top Japanese automakers.

These results are reflected in numbers released by J.D. Power & Associates as well. In the both of the latest J.D. Power Surveys, the German brands can’t match up to their luxury peers. In the most latest vehicle dependability survey, Mercedes-Benz only gets a four out of five, which is “Better than most” rating, while Audi and BMW get Trio/Five or “About Average.” Volkswagen falls below average with Two/Five, what J.D. Power describes as “The Rest.” Porsche is also ranked “Better than most” in J.D. Power’s dependability survey, which give Mercedes-Benz some nice company. It’s significant to note that only one car maker had a score of Five/Five, and that’s Lexus.

Nothing switches in J.D. Power’s Initial Quality rankings. Mercedes and Porsche have Four/Five ratings, BMW and Audi get just Three/Five and VW only achieves Two/Five. Lexus tops that ranking as well with a Five/Five.

The J.D. Power ratings are based on consumer surveys. Initial Quality is measured after ninety days of a fresh car’s purchase. Vehicle Dependability Ratings are surveys based on the past twelve months of original owners of three-year old cars.

POOR RANKING NOT JUST ABOUT QUALITY

Some of the reasons why German cars fight in J.D. Power’s rankings in the past are entirely trivial and are not related to actual vehicle quality at all says Karl Brauer from Total Car Score.

“German cars didn’t suggest cup holders for years, and while this isn’t a mechanical failure it was often noted as a dissatisfaction point for buyers on J.D. Power and Consumer Reports surveys, and this drove down their scores” said Brauer. “Most German cars (even Porsches) now have cup-holders because the manufacturers realized they were suffering in terms of holder satisfaction scores by not having them,” he added. The same thing could be said about some of the complicated technologies and infotainment systems like BMW’s very first generation iDrive system (pictured right).

SACRIFICE FOR Spectacle

Along with these more trivial complaints and technology issues, Shenhar of Consumer Reports tells us that German automakers, by their own admission, sometimes come up brief because of their singular concentrate on spectacle. When and if they cut costs, the likely areas that will get cheaper quality parts will be with some of the stuff the customer might not notice.

“They are susceptible to cost-cutting and anywhere they can, in the hopes that the customer won’t know, they use suppliers that will supply and sometimes won’t,” says Shenhar.

While the phrase “German Engineering” has become synonymous with reliability, Shenhar suggests it should more accurately be a reference to spectacle. And in regards to spectacle, there’s little doubt they have some high standards. In fact, looking away from initial quality and reliability, German vehicles rank fairly well.

GERMAN CARS STILL APEAL-ING

In J.D. Power’s Automotive Spectacle, Execution & Layout (APEAL) explore, which looks at how gratifying a fresh vehicle is to own and drive, based on holder evaluations, Porsche comes out on top, as the only automaker to get Five/Five. Audi, BMW Mercedes and VW all achieve a Four/Five in this survey as well, showcasing that these cars are no slouch when it comes to spectacle and execution.

With its fresh 3-series, BMW has set the bar even higher for sport sedans, and the fresh Porsche nine hundred eleven has again solidified the automakers place in automotive history for making the best sports car in the business. It’s no surprise then that both cars were in the running as finalists for the two thousand twelve World Car of the Year Award.

Neither won, however, but that accolade did still go to a German car: the VW up! In fact, it’s VW’s fourth win in the past five years. Winners are selected based on overall merit, value, safety, environmental responsibility, emotional appeal, and significance.

It’s clear then that there are slew of reasons to buy a car from automakers like BMW, Mercedes, Audi and Volkswagen, but if reliability is your top concern, don’t be fooled by the myth of “German engineering”.

See page two for features on vehicle reliability:

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I couldn’t agree more.

It was ture before, but now a car without electrical and electronics is an antique car. For example, engine/spark cork firing is electronically monitored and managed mainly by onboard computer, so are braking system, emmision control, transmission,…etc. The article is somewhat a joke.

electrified electronic devices. that’s where japanese have surpassed germans since 80s. and that’s why german cars are actually less reliable.

The article starts by poorly refuting its own “myth” regarding Toyotas as appliances then provides a partial and illogical linkage inbetween reliabilty and engineering. Toyota itself has admitted that it has not focused on the enthusiast part of the market, clearly evidenced by its CEO’s latest acknowledgments telling the rigid needed to build more joy cars. And while reliability is certainly part of the overall engineering equation, so are a number of other factors. For example, if you value safety, accident avoidance, spectacle, and moving the technological bar forwards, German manufacturers clearly have the edge – building a few Godzillas notwithstanding. If you value a lower level of those attributes but value reliability above all, it’s your dollar, buy Japanese. Bottom line, I’ve had and liked my share of RX-7’s and Supras over the years, but they’re atypical of Japanese cars, and frankly when I could afford German, I’ve never looked back.

Thanks for correcting my word. I should use “electrical”.

Now German auto makers are developing EV and Hybrid , and also Volvo’s reliability ranking has been outperforming BMW and MB for years too. Therefore, there is no excuse at all for German cars.

It is an unfortunate fact: German cars are not as reliable as they should be especially given the cost . In my instantaneous entourage (family and friends) this is what I have encountered: MB ML two thousand seven driven by an elderly gentleman with only 41k miles blew a transmission. VW Passat CC two thousand nine nothing but electronic problems from the embark.. a real lemon. Two thousand nine BMW five hundred twenty eight 6 sp manual: gargled transmision.

Of course this is a puny sample but it does not encourage me to consider a German car even if I like many of them. I would buy an X3 diesel tomorrow if it were available. ( I test drove a two thousand eleven X3 35i but when flooring it while coasting at 40mph, the turbo lag was so pronounced that I was indeed turned off). I would consider the fresh two thousand thirteen GLK Bluetec diesel but I truly cannot warm up to those fat chrome lips in the front and the abate rear end that looks like an older Subaru Forester.

In my opinion many of the German cars have poor designs (not to say ugly).

The MB ML looks like an old Explorer, the MB B-200 is ugly, many of the BMWs of the past four years are frumpy looking. It is a different story for the VW-Audi-Porsche group. The design of most of their cars is well ahead of everyone except (ironically) Kia whose chief designer is from Audi.

I love the Touareg TDI for its style and efficient diesel engine, too bad it is sooo intense (almost 5000lbs). It is comfy but its weight dampens its potentially sporty drive and affects the braking distance. So I am patiently waiting for a diesel powered petite SUV and so far the Germans are the only ones to suggest some choices. Kudos to them for that aspect!

The Initial Quality Index is based on consumer feedback from the very first few months of a fresh cars.

I don’t give a flying hoot… I have four BMW’s (2006 Alpine White M3 that is modified, a heavily-modified two thousand Topaz Blue 328Ci, a lightly modified two thousand one 325i, and a 1998.Five 740i Sport), all are manual transmission cars except the 740, and all have Sport/Premium/Cold-Weather/Premium-Sound packages.

I have spent less on maintenance for all four of these cars than anyone will believe (and I am a nut when it comes to preventative maintenance; I have never had anything break, I substitute it before it can; and I ALWAYS go with very high-end aftermarket parts). I do have well over a hundred grand into modifications (twin-screw supercharged with fully built motor – 328Ci ; track-focused suspension/weight-loss/brakes – M3), but many of the parts substituted those that would have to be substituted anyway, except instead of spending for example $1200 for factory shocks/springs, I spent $2100 for TC Kline D/A Coil-Overs with Reinforced Ball-Joint Rear Mounts, total PowerFlex bushings, Vorschlag Camber Plates, and more… all of which have either a 10yr or lifetime warranty.

Just gotta be wise. If you are IN ANY WAY worried about the cost of maintaining a German Car (BMW’s, especially… Mercedes=yuk), you can’t afford it. I am so sick of eyeing eighteen year old kids driving cars that they cannot afford, much less afford to maintain, and eventually selling them for a high price because they think “I spent $18k on this 5yr old Bimmer, only put 30k miles on it in two years, so I should get $17k for it”… But, in that 30k miles, it’s only had one oil switch, and nothing more. The car is trashed, the kid is a dumb****, and a beautiful car is neglected.

IF YOU ARE BUYING A BMW:

– Factor in all of the costs, everything, and see if you can afford it; THEN ADD $4000/year to that number and if you can’t afford it, DON’T F**KING BUY IT. IT”S THAT Ordinary!

It’s just unfortunate that you do also have to pay so much to maintain them. Obviously that’s not an issue for you.

Models sold in the US are not German made.

Use German cars in my country are imported both from the US and Germany. Clearly, the German made models look slightly better and are much more reliable.

Your mom’s bum is reliable.

LOL 100k and well over…LOL.. Spectacle and looks? yes…reliability…one of the worst. Japanese are more bland looking but quality is much better…. you pick

The idiot who wrote this article has no clue about cars. The only thing he got right was that the Japanese make reliable cars. The only other companies on the planet that rival Japanese Engineering is German Engineering. Both countries have the highest schooling standards and it gets ridiculous when you go to University in those countries. Not to mension taking engineering. Half the surveys he looked at rates quality based on cup holders, car radio loudness and seat reclining features. A cars true score on quality can spectacle comes from testing on the Nurburgring and the Autobarn. Don’t be fooled, nobody engineers, builds, manufactures and tests a car like the Germans and Japanese! Thats a fact proven across history.

JD Powers is an idiot…

I get it now, thanks for clarifying that when you buy a $$$$ car you have to pay $$$$$$$ to keep it going. You just busted the myth of reliability. All one has to do is keep substituting the parts before they break and love excellent reliability.

Please note the above post is sarcasm.

I myself am a seventeen year old, soon going to get his own*forearm me down car*, and I can tell you right now, I was doing the work since a kid on my families car, and my bro wants me to help him alot… but yeah I see what you mean, there are alot of idiots that don’t know, butI just want you to know not all of us are…

In Germany the cars are made by many eastern and southern Europeans and Turks . How does that get you?

The Touareg is overweight like the German people themselves.

Debating ..reliability of a honda accord (which u cant strike ) or get a VW jetta which bodystyle i like alot more but have heard alot more negative reliability ratings for the vw. I guess you can compare it to the decent /average looking dame whos more secure as oppose to the gorgeous dame whos wild and who ur not sure u can trust..

Your argument is counter-intuitive. German cars cost a heck of a lot more so theoretically they should be using premium parts that don’t break. This is an old canard that’s often used by German car nuts to rationalize the ridiculous expense and lack of consistent reliability in German brands (Porsche excepted of course).

Anybody that spends ems of thousands on aftermarket modifications on their car is hardly the everyday consumer so your points are pretty much moot here.

BMW, Merc, Audi, VW etc make nice cars that are overpriced and less reliable. But they have an pic that many will pay for. Personally I do as Nleksan suggested and choose not to F**KING BUY IT (German car that is).

What did you pick? I’m nosey..similar situation

Had a few German cars in my life and worked on explosions for other people. Modern German cars (especially BMW, which are the worst for quality in my opinion) generally are fairly poor for long term reliability, and in alot of cases terrible in the brief term, flaky electrics, dodgy trim (brittle plastics, writing that wears off buttons, window motors packing in or regulators pulling down to lumps etc), cheaper components used in gearboxes for example make them fragile and susceptable to failing under any kind of manhandle. Normally, German car nuts defend these shortcomings by blaming the owners for either not maintaining their vehicles correctly, or by implying that they are somehow manhandling their cars when something goes wrong.

Overall, stick with either US Domestic products, or go Asian, and avoid anything made in Europe…

US Domestic products ? You gotta be kidding me ? Go Asian true . But if you plan to go German only buy Volkswagen (for its value for money ) and certain Mercedes models

Why did you say mercedes (yuk),mercedes are equal or better then bmw´s…

I have had a Mercedes and a BMW, both nothing special. One thousand nine hundred seventy six Mercedes three hundred D and one thousand nine hundred eighty eight 535i. I love those cars for the way they feel on the road and affect ones mentality of driving. Both were reliable cars, with high miles and the parts I had to substitute during the years of the ownership were high quality that after replacement never broke again and there weren’t many of them to substitute. The door on a Mercedes closes like a vault even after 200K on the car, like the door on a brand fresh Honda never will. Reliability of the car shows not only in drive-train but also in treating and safety in any of the road conditions and unexpected situations that may arise where all too many parts of the engineering come in place to avoid or deter the accident. Brakes, suspension, car weight and dispersion of the weight in driving and braking, cornering capability, rigidity of the car, all is calculated as it has been for decades on makes such as Mercedes and BMW to the utmost attention to the detail. Anyone knows in the industry that the crash tests that these automakers do are unparalleled. Let’s not leave behind about the long drives and the convenience that molded therapeutic seats of BMW and Mercedes will support your butt and spine in the way that cheaper models can’t. There is a reason why one pays less. A lot of it comes down to individual preference. It doesnt cost that much more to operate the solid Mercedes or BMW than a lightweight Honda or Toyota. If you are a car enthusiast and loves a quality drive, a romance with the car and the road and oneself for that matter possessing a car like that isn’t just about a commute but being part of something that is art in a way, like drinking or eating a better wine or a meal that costs more, but it also proves to supply more satisfaction and smiles..

I love my TDI Sportwagen but cannot afford to buy another. $900 worth of door switches (Two, and the car will not lock without them), a $500 harass system part and now, drum roll please, a 2nd $500 radio antenna. This car is built like a tank. The stupid little stuff is not designed to be inexpensively substituted and so the car becomes very expensive. Gravely, $1,000 worth of RADIO ANTENNAS.

German cars are the best! Nothing compares to reliability/ dependability, design, technology, looks, functionality, and overall quality. They are, by far, the most regal on the road.

What’s tested in Autobahn and Nurburgring are not what’s interesting to most car buyers. For a vast majority of car buyers, day-to-day reliability and low maintenance costs are more significant than whether a particular car can lap the Nurburgring in under ten minutes or not.

I own a x5 and a cl600 v12. These cars are enormously unreliable concidering what you pay for them. Lexus is a much better brand than the two of them put together.

Mercedes is the worst poor build quality and parts are so expensive its a joke. Merc is very arrogent as well its time they eyed their backsides

X5 is built in america

Modern US domestic cars are a joke to engineering. Most German cars are driven like dogs. Asian cars are abate. Best value for money go Asian. Best driving practice go German. If you don’t give a shit go American. What people do not pay attention to is what country their care is built in. Cars exported from German and Japan are reliable as a diamond.

There’s no place for nationalism here. The last time I checked, Japan, South Korea, and all of Europe were capitalist democracies. Our last conflicts with them ended at least a decade ago and I’d like to think that we can stir forward as a common economic bloc.

As much as I’d like to see GM and Ford (and even Chrysler) succeed, I’m not willing to let their supporters guilt or, worse, intimidate me into buying their products. That’s racketeering, plain and plain. Companies that fail in the marketplace should be permitted to die, in a sort of managed searing, to free up resources for future entrepreneurs. If GM had been permitted to go bankrupt, companies such as Tesla would have had access to a larger resource pool.

I had a two thousand one G Class it drove like a tank and never broke down mauntenace was very elementary and not costly compared to other top end SUVs.

This article was supposed to be about reliability. Now what has the lack of cup holders to do with that? If you want a cup holder, get an American car. If German engineering is just a myth, how come they make the fastest car in the world, the Bugatti Veyron Super Sport?

For years “German Engineering” has ridden on the cover tails of the real quality behind their reputation, the skill, training, and work ethic of the German factory worker. We see this now as they have been outsourcing manufacturing and assembly of their vehicles and components. My ’98 s420 was assembled in Stuttgart by the German metal workers union, IG Metall, and it’s build quality and attention to detail are simply amazing, If you compare customer satisfaction ratings on models made exclusively in Germany, you will find the ratings much higher than models made at other global plants, not to mention problems caused by outsourced parts, no matter who installs them!

…Bugatti is French

German cars may not be reliable but it will smoke these jap cars on the streets

Sebastian,as you can make difference inbetween cup holder and reliability,can you please light me up where s the connection with the reliability and that German engineering(spectacle). I believe the autor here put it down to you soo clearly,so you retards can understand:))

One more retard who never had his own car…looking at the magazines with numbers,pics and gadgets and ejaculating on his mother picture.. Wake up boy,time to go to school!!

And something else. which shows that you have no fuckn idea whatsoever about cars,,Königsegg and Saleen s7 are the fastest in the world. highest top speed and hp per kg. go eat french cheese and proceed reading reliability reports:)) Do you know what is TUV or ADAC. German institutions for car servicing in which reliability rankings their own,german production starts from number…Ten. and the top five belongs to Japan,next is Korea and then are the german cars kicking off with Porsche:) I m working as a master mechanic at BOSCH and i m indeed,realy sick of all those “proffesors” like you who read few magazines with numbers and 0-100 top speed statistics and the latest high techs taking over the driver and they think they know everything. Read man,dont eat spaghetti,READ!!

As a mechanic, German cars are good for my business and best money makers. Most of them are lumps of junk by the time they hit 100k miles while I have seen Lexus and Acura vehicles with 300k miles and still without any significant problems or costly repairs.

It’s true that Bugatti once was French, but since one thousand nine hundred ninety eight it’s German (wielded by Volkswagen).

I’m not fairly sure where you’ve got your information about the Saleen from, it’s actually far from being the fastest car. Presently the Koenigsegg Agera R ranks very first in terms of top speed (442 km/h) and the Bugatti Veyron 16.Four Super Sport four hundred thirty one km/h. In terms of acceleration, you’ll have a hard time finding another car going swifter 0-100 than the Bugatti (i.e. Two.Five sec).

However, I desired to suggest before you’re picking on other’s inferiority in car skill, maybe you should work on your grammar and spelling a bit.

I m sure if you had made some effort to”google” the fastest cars in the world,we wont make that dialog,but there you go:)) Yes,the Agera holds the record,but im not sure how far your memory goes,but before the Super Sport it was just Veyron.. Therefore he was contesting with SSC Aero. Saleen and Königsegg. In that time Bugatti state that their car is the world fastest,and few months later Saleen blows that they have the fastest car in the world with top speed of 400+ km. It indeed doesnt make difference for me..i dont like american cars,they are ancient,cheap made and going safe only in a straight line. but thats another story:)). what i mean is that Saleen was not that far from world fastest,but anyway:)) About my grammar,english is not my mother tongue,and as far as you understand me,you should be thankfull:))

Master Mechanic at BOSCH, why do you need to Google?

1. Bugatti Veyron Super Sport

Two. Hennessey Venom GT & Koenigsegg Agera R

Source: Guinness World Records

there’s no need to be discriminatory (“so you retards can understand”), and your ego is not needed or dreamed here. I’m sure there are better sides of you, perhaps showcase those off instead? <- lesson for life.

I fully agree with this article considering that my individual practice with German Car manufacturers has proven to be a big disapointment. I own an A5 today and it may have been the worst choice that I ever made, when taking into account quality and product reliability in relation to the price that I had to pay for the car. I have had far too many problems and it never seems to stop. Cost for repair is phat.

I wielded three MB’s in the past, aprt from the 190E, it also turned to be a very expensive practice and I got so tired to visit the garage for costly repairs.

My fucking partner wielded a DS3, she drove four thousand miles without having a single problem, utter satisfaction all the way. We have now substituted it with a DS4 and we simply love this car as well.

Chakri Pakri..who cares:))

biased!, consumer reports? indeed?

sorry but what year did you get that reference from&#8230;cause according to two thousand thirteen guinness world records&#8230;its the other way around

I think u r a crazy feminist base ball player.Meah&#8230;..German car ..is. Good..meah&#8230;.

i witnessed a Audi getting a fresh belt i thought it was being dissembled entirely what were they thinking when they designed these cars but het i guess those leds every car has now are still cool the thing i hate most about German cars they switch very little from model year to the next always the same never any dramatic styling switches inwards or out and i always have to look at the model tag to see how much the driver was ripped off cause three 5s look so alike same with c’s and e’s i say by german if you want people to think you have money by lexus if you have money and want a nice car aside from the rx all lexus cars are made in japan which is how it should can c class from mexico justify its price tag?

SAFETY? Considering how poor German cars do on the fresh puny overlap test, that’s another myth that needs to be debunked. They aren’t Hondas/Acuras/Volvos.

NIssan GT-R begs to differ.

Rowen is an idiot lol. Oh yes, I take my bmw to the autoban to test its reliability. That’s one day. Rowen please dont procreate. I hope you die.

JD power isnt just one person lol. You are the idiot. omg the internet is total of dumbasses

BMW and Mercedes owners love it up the butt. How I know you may ask? They love getting repair bills stuff up their butts and they keep going back for more.

Had French shit named Renault&#8230;It had like 150,000 km and I had to repair it every week. Now I have the old Opel Corsa(2003) from my father. I took it when it had around 80,000km and now it has over 230,000 km and not a single problem. I only switch filters, oil and other significant and less significant liquids&#8230;.and not mention that if you drive it below one hundred forty km/h it consumes <Five.0 Liters

Well that escalated quickly&#8230;

You missed the entire point of the article. It says “German Engineering” offers very high spectacle and generally has all the cool gadgets in the car. Speed is not the issue. The problems people have with the cars is the issue. Reliability

Well it seems that also Japanese cars are going the same route as the Germans more like a myth that Japanese cars are reliable and it seems that their rankings are going down hill to the top twenty and the fresh leaders of the pack will be Hyundai and Kia from Korea to be like the LG and Samsung of the auto industry and by a year or two the Hyundai Aquas and the fresh luxury notch Kia will have the Five/Five rankings and Lexus will be Four/Five because they are laying back and it seems that Koreans will top the Japanese as their flawless product plus the recalls of Toyotas and minor flaws in other Japanese brands and also a good point GM from their Korean arm has also surpass the Japanese in initial quality like the Aveo and the Spark also the Buicl LaCrosse is loaded and also a good performer, but is sold as a Chevrolet in South Korea.

GM and Korean brands topping the Japanese with switch sides of German engineering as a case of making it better Japan has done to both American and European in the ’80s and now the Koreans are using the switch sides engineering of German technology and that’s why Hyundai and Kia are surpassing the Japanese brands because of appearing petite on their vehicles that also to include cars developed by GM’s Korean division.

By the time this switch Hyundai becomes the world’s number two automaker and GM is back to number one because of the big props of thanks to the Korean division of GM of R&D they help put GM to number one again so look at the Corvette they look so alike like a Ferrari and that’s why Koreans are going to ahead begin to out leap the Japanese as they are power thirsty to surpass the Japanese and they are doing it.

My very first car was a sixty nine Beetle&#8230; later had a seventy six Limited Edition Scirocco, now own a ninety G60 Corrado and a latest model A3 TDi. The Beetle ran on three cylinders four yrs into ownership, the Scirocco was soft metal&#8230; twisted lightly, got rid of it within two years, The G60 needs constant attention. Too early for a verdict on the A3.

Reliability&#8230;. well the cars I’ve possessed were engineering to provide me with challenges for my hobby, tinkering with mechanical things.

Could you post a link to your source of information, till then I will consider you a liar. TUV reported for two thousand thirteen something different of what you claim. Albeit Toyota and Mazda occupy six places of the very first ten the rest are for German cars with VW Polo and Audi Q5 on 1st and 3rd positions respectively (age of cars 2-3 years). Korean cars are in the middle or on the bottom of the list. French, Italian, American cars stuck on the bottom of the chart.

Search in Google “Report two thousand thirteen reliability rating TÜV age 2-3”

Search in Google “Report two thousand thirteen reliability rating TÜV”

TUV reported for two thousand thirteen something different from what most of you claim. Albeit Toyota and Mazda occupy 5-6 places of the very first ten most reliable cars the rest are for German cars with VW, Audi, Porsche, Mercedes positioning among the top Ten. Korean cars are in the middle or on the bottom of the list. French, Italian, American cars stuck on the bottom of the chart.

SLS AMG lost. You need Ferrari, lamborghini, or others from this class to smoke GT-R. And GT-R is made for cornering.

How often a car is “in the shop” is only one, and perhaps not the most significant, indicator of long-term reliability. I care more about whether the car remains solid over time, and if I am not mistaken, this is where the German cars (particularly Mercedes) have their reliability reputation.

The claim is Japanese cars are reliable. I own a ninety seven Civic with 130k miles that indeed drives very much like it did when it was fresh. My mom has a slightly newer vintage Nissan Altima that never has to get repaired, but it has clearly degraded. Engine is louder, acceleration seems worse, some funny creaks and groans here and there. Both cars, are “J.D. Powers” reliable. But in my practice, many Japanese cars end up looking more like my mom’s than mine.

Now I admit that I am fresh to German cars, having recently just bought one, but the reliability I indeed care more about is whether it holds up over time, even if some time at the repair shop is needed. A good example is my friend’s BMW seven series that I railed in about twelve years ago. It drove majestically: sleek, powerful, solid. And it was cosmetically in excellent form, with the leather still looking fairly fresh. So I asked him how he was able to afford such an amazing car since he was fresh out of school. It turns out it was a one thousand nine hundred eighty four model transferred down from his dad, with over 200k miles (i.e., about sixteen years old at the time)! I didn’t realize this simply because I had little clue on those cars and their styling at that time. Sure, it had its fair share of annoying, expensive fixes, but the point is that it stayed a solid car. And I suspect no amount of money could have made my mom’s car remain solid, even tho’ by conventional “reliability” measures it was superb.

Think of it this way: after fifteen years, my mom’s car was the no-maintenance donkey ready to be put out to pasture. My friend’s BMW was a higher maintenance thoroughbred still in its prime. So I would not be so quick to make a blanket dismissal of German cars based on some stupid JD Powers stats.

I’ve possessed numerous European cars (both as company cars and privately) and would certainly agree that BMW quality has suffered, my previous e39 530d had electrical /mechanical issues, and my last 535d had electrical gremlins (too many control units monitoring other control units). I presently have a Ford Mondeo Two.0 diesel which was cheap to buy used , maintain and has been reliable as a daily driver. My other car is a nine hundred ninety seven turbo which has done 140k miles no problem and is my 4th nine hundred eleven turbo. Certainly I like the feel of the materials on the BMW/Merc & Audi’s except they have too many problems and dealers know all too well of the shortfalls in reliability.

Wow, that’s all nice and stuff about your one thousand nine hundred seventy six MB and one thousand nine hundred eighty eight BMW, but geez man, those cars are fricken old, like 25+ years old, so who cares. I’m not going to look for a twenty five year old used car. Lot has switched since then. What’s been going on in the last five to ten years? That’s what matters now. Love your old cars.

BMW’s are made to be reliable for the very first proprietor / leasee and to a lesser degree the CPO crowd. After that they turn to shit and BMW could care less. I mean why can the asian brands build cars that are for the most part trouble free up to and past 100K and yet german engineering cannot make reliable fuel pumps, water pumps, radiators, thermostats and all of the other plastic parts that fail in the five year / 60k mile point. It’s because it is not their priority. See opening statement. And yes I was an proprietor of a two thousand six 325i&#8230;.many issues and problems.

well crap and sit in it! I just bought a fresh two thousand thirteen VW Golf R (US version), and let me tell you this is not an inexpensive hatchback. Lots of high-tech stuff (to go wrong) in this car. I went from a relatively reliable Subaru WRX (12 years) to this little AWD sport-hatch. It’s nicely powered by a famously engineered Audi engine, and it treats indeed well while maintaining decent rid equality. The interior is above it’s class competition by a large degree. I was very struck by the car and consider it a drivers’ car. I’m such a driver, so it was flawless for me&#8230;until I cam across this article. So, now the night-sweats begin as I await the very first failure. Did I make a (costly) error in judgement? I’ll just keep liking the car until it blows up.

I think the controversy regarding VW products proceeds because while they – like most other automakers – make lots of good cars, they also – unlike most others – make lots of bad ones. And owners’ bad feelings are compounded by the widespread reputation of VW of America and its dealers to not right-those-wrongs.

You pay your money and you take your chance.

It’s certainly possible that EDM German cars are more reliable than their USDM counterparts. Maybe American suppliers are worse at making European parts?

That’s reflective of BMW manufacturing standards circa 1984, not right now.

Brief: Spectacle + Cost + Reliability = Constant; US market conditions force costs down.

Long: The reaction isn’t that complicated. Ask Europeans whether German cars are reliable relative to others on the market, and they will say yes. Then again, take a look at the prices of the same cars in Europe and in the US. Notice a difference? The US version is always cheaper, often much cheaper. The problem then is that both EDM and USDM versions have to be built from the same design despite the latter being much cheaper. Therefore to maintain profit margins the latter have to be built at a much lower cost, and thus quality, particularly long-term reliability suffers.

I can see the point in your arguments. From my observations I made similar conclusion. Obviously ADAC and TUV report excellent reliability for many German models (as well as some Japanese cars) whereas american “Consumer Reports” magazine from April two thousand thirteen ranks the brands as go after:

1. Lexus – seventy nine overall score

From place #9 on go after other Japanese and German cars. The magazine states: “Reliability helped AUDI distinguish itself from other European brands”

I can see the point in your arguments. From my observations I made similar conclusion. Obviously ADAC and TUV report excellent reliability for many German models (as well as some Japanese cars) whereas the american “Consumer Reports” magazine from April two thousand thirteen ranks only AUDI from the German cars among the very first eight most reliable brands. Then from place #9 on are the other Japanese and German cars. The magazine states: “Reliability helped AUDI distinguish itself from other European brands”

RXs are also built in Ontario, Canada.

SLS AMG awaits at the shop&#8230;&#8230;.HAHA&#8230;.waiting for a service advisor and mechanic to check to see what is wrong with this and that&#8230;&#8230;.:(

I have been driving seven series for about eight years now and I have a two thousand one 740il at the moment

this car has been the most reliable car I ever drove or wielded by the way I’m a mechanic and car dealer so a lot of practice in that area, very first of all most of the parts in German cars

when they break down and I get to switch them I noticed that the original is not made in Germany but rather made in Turkey Mexico and the list goes on but the shocking part is that the aftermarket good ones are made in Germany and they never break down also I noticed some parts are plastic original ones and not German made the aftermarket GERMAN IS metal, and I also lived in Europe the cars there are made with different quality so withstand two hundred fifty plus K/hr , the so called Japanese good quality cars will not be able to stand the pressure of Autobahns for more than a few months if somebody drives say from Holland to Germany everyday at more than two hundred fifty K/hr so north American market is quiet different most of the parts are made here or Mexico which can not be good.

also The parts in Japanese cars some of them cost triple than the German ones for example a mass air flow for Nissan Altima is $850 and the BMW or Merecedes is About $350 and the list goes on in Canadian market

I hope I was helpful to clarify the Myth

This is a excellent opinion chunk. Anyone who thinks Toyota makes the F-RS should stick to other subjects. The F-RS is a rebadged Subaru. Toyota simply contributed the fuel injection system. Write about food or something as you clearly are out of your element.

Even American cars will run trouble free up to 100k. From there things will go downhill tho’&#8230;.

So Hyundai is going to switch sides engineer an unreliable German product to make more reliable cars?

The Japanese and Koreans are racketeering. Their countries don’t export (maybe a few hundred) American cars at all. But we import hundreds and thousands of their cars?

Why not? Lots of people love classic cars. I love how 70s,60s,50s American cars look. And they will turn more goes than the ubiquitous Mercedes or BMW. And some of them are worth more money than those.

Because tariffs and taxes make importing an American car utterly expensive. Also, American cars are shit compared to Japanese/Korean cars, and on top of that, are simply impractical over there. There is simply no market for giant SUVs and pick-up trucks. Despite allegedly having the world’s tiniest penises, they don’t feel the need to overcompensate for it like the rednecks do here in the States.

Then we should raise our tariffs and taxes to match theirs and make importing a Japanese car very expensive. If Japan wants to block out competition we should do the same and see how their sales suffer.

Compared to Korean cars? Are you kidding? NOW they are good (still wouldn’t trust them for another ten years) but 10-20 years ago Hyundai/Kia were known as crap disposable cars.

Japanese- Ford is right there with them in terms of reliability if you look at reliability ratings. Europeans, predictably at the bottom. And we don’t just have giant SUV’s and pick-ups. People are ditching them for smaller cars. Ford’s 1.0l engine has won numerous awards for being the best engine. Also the Ford Fiesta is the UK’s best selling car because it is practical there as it would be in Japan. The Brits don’t like japanese because their interior is shit.

My dad had the original VW beetle of the 60s and 70s, joy and reliable cars, at least I don’t reminisce any problems because I was only a kid at the time, and it was a blast learning to drive them zooming around in that rather noisy air cooled engine with skinny tires.

I’m sure this is how VW wants our memories to be.

My fond memories quickly turned sour with the two thousand eleven GTI, with numerous water pump failures. I bought it fresh from the dealer, no modifications, and took care of it. I recently dumped the GTI and went for the Japanese competition. You can bet I will never buy a German car again. I was informed by my lawyer BMW, Mercedes, VW and Audi have such poor quality, they will lodge knowing total well they don’t have a chance of winning in the civil court system. Good thing for lemon laws, it the only thing that saves the consumer from the German car manufacturers.

The fact the Japanese were able to predominate the car market with good reliable cars says volumes about the motives of the German car companies, its not in their interest to build a reliable car, instead wooing their customers they are driving hot stuff and making sure they pay high premiums for repair as a result of “a bonding” with their cars. The German can companies are laughing all the way to the bank.

Volkswagen makes the Veyron, subsidized by out of warranty repairs on the mass produced VW.

This is a good post, German cars are indeed designed for people with deep pockets.

The problem is when the average person buys a baseline VW at 25K, and it kills them financially to keep it running. That person should be buying a Honda or Toyota, and the only way to keep them out is the make the car unattainable from the get go; that car should be priced at 75K, not 25K as rich people won’t complain about maintenance. The elevated cost could be used to help subsidize current owners who are suffering, permitting them to dump their cars at a good price, then and at some point, the average person will be factored out of a game they should not be playing.

Your comment has no bearing on the article. Nowhere did it mention anything about the FR-S or subaru for that matter. Maybe you would find posting on a subaru fanboy page more rewarding.

stop lie Lexus and Acura even cant stay in one chunk for 250k because they will begin rust long before that&#8230;.

at least german supercars do not need switch gearbox oil every 2000k miles

Veyron engine has been designed by Audi engineers&#8230;

yee only Q5 has almost dual the milage then all other cars in top10

yea, that’s a good point&#8230;

FRS has a Toyota transmission, it’s likely more of a 50-50 effort, than 0-100.

VW,Audi,Skoda are all part of the same VAG group and own an Audi 2007/8 a4 avant Two.0tdi and it has had several faults and is presently in the garage with a manufacturers design fault that they still deny.

Chain driven oil pump failure fortunately ii stoped if i had driven any further could have throated my turbo and engine as it fails without any warning and stops supplying oil around the engine.

And for this design fault of theirs they want me to pay £3500! lowest ive seen if just duo of parts go due to this fault is £1500 ,if it takes your turbo and engine then £6-£10000

So i am not glad with German engineering at present,possessed this car two years and so far has cost me £6-£7000 in repairs most design flaws! and only cost £14000!

VW,Audi,Skoda are all part of the same VAG group .

I own an Audi 2007/8 a4 avant Two.0tdi and it has had several faults and is presently in the garage with a manufacturers design fault that they still deny.

Chain driven oil pump failure ( has a plastic tensioner that cracks and a hex bar thats too petite that wears quickly and rounds off the teeth and then stops supplying the oil to the engine with no warning) fortunately i stopped if i had driven any further could have deepthroated my turbo and engine as it fails without any warning and stops supplying oil around the engine.

And for this design fault of theirs they want me to pay £3500! lowest ive seen if just duo of parts go due to this fault is £1500 ,if it takes your turbo and engine then £6-£10000

So i am not blessed with German engineering at present,wielded this car two years and so far has cost me £6-£7000 in repairs most design flaws! and only cost £14000!

Forums are total of German car faults and also other manufacturers it seem s all are guilty of not supplying us the consumer with reliable well built products all striive to cut costs to earn more profit with us being the ones who get ripped off again!

I’ve been in the motor trade for over ten years and it is absolutely true that German car reliability is a myth. Whilst German marques generally lead the way in innovation and perceived quality the reliability kings are Japanese or more recently Korean. Strangely this is reflected in customer care as well.

It always baffled me when I was selling VW and Audi as fresh and used vehicles that the cars are beautifully laid out ergonomically and the aesthetic beauty of an Audi interior is truly something to behold. However, the backroom stuff such as electronics and engines, gearboxes etc were undoubtedly built to a budget.

Faults that you would infrequently get with Japanese cars were a regular occurrence in German cars. Even more annoying was that when a fault recurred such as failing diesel pumps on Passat models in cold weather the manufacturer took an eternity to amend the part to fix the problem. I recall lines of Passats lined up at my dealership awating pumps and having to unclothe fresh cars in the compound for pumps as the manufacturer couldn’t supply replacements quick enough. Whilst Audi were slightly better (don’t know why as it’s the same stuff underneath) they were still fairly woeful as well. Strangely, after a stint with Ford they actually proved to be better built. They still had their issues but nowhere near as unreliable as the German stuff. What do I drive now? A 13yr old Corolla. Whilst I’m in the trade I have my pick of pretty much anything but I’ve never been a car snob. Money buys you brands and badges. Pretty much the same with clothes or handbags.

You answered your question. In one thousand nine hundred eighty four German stuff was good. From the late eighties they lost it. Cost cutting being the problem along with the cars themselves becoming increasingly complicated.

This is just a special case. I know similar cases with Toyota, Honda, BMW and so on. The statistic is different story&#8230;

This is just a special case. I know similar cases with Toyota, Honda, BMW and so on. The statistic is different story&#8230; Let’s not mention the British auto industry – total fails

I grew up with German cars in Europe and for me did not exist other even close brand even close to it.

Eventually, I saved for and bought a C280 with all the accessories. Expensive.

Most likely, because I had to order the car, the vehicle at the factory was considered already “sold” and the final inspection was simply filthy, to say the least.

Even the initial, visualized defects were ridiculous : the dashboard was asymmetrically installed, the interior trimming did not fit, the rear door could not be closed&#8230;

But this was only the beginning and demonstrable.

The never ending chain of problems before and mainly after warranty made me angry as I felt betrayed and taken for my money.

The AC repair, then 2nd soon AC repair , three or four oil leaks in the engine, then another in the differential, substitute the radiator, pumps, never ending idiot light – check the engine- , due to engine malfunctions with oil leaks and expensive emission control system. And the problems, now of course after many years, still go on and on.

Investing so much money in repairs from the commence, I thought it should be the end of the problems so I kept the monster. Then, of course, came the rightful penalty from my wifey, who drives Honda as well as my daughter, both excellent.

Insult to injury was the the dealership wants to look good and fix “everything”. They, I believe, were blunting my efforts to obtain a fresh vehicle, which I believe I may have succeeded. The supervise mechanic agreed that the car is a lemon.

Adding to this is my time. I was working up to twelve hours a day and my wasted time would com to thousands of dollars.

My friends, who own Mercedeses, were almost all unhappy, including one which I visited in Japan.

Never a Mercedes. It is like a beautiful boat, which , however, doesn’t stay afloat.

They have demolished my Mercedes desire, a desire from my childhood.

Hey, where is the government in this?

a friend of mine, a Korean tells me, that the kia cars are designed by Europeans, so possibly the technology, too. I think the execution on the assembly line is the issue. german cars are all made by the immigrants – no offence.

I had an two thousand audi a4 Quattro with the turbo 1.8 for close to thirteen years and 100k miles (just traded it in.) Over the years it needed over 12k in repairs, most of which was paid by extended warranty companies. The fit and finish of the car was superb and it treated excellent. The main issues are with the quality of the parts used. Gaskets, seals, sensors, drive boots, and controllers all commence to go after five years. The entire throttle assets and intake system went out at eight years. Looking at the most latest reviews, nothing has switched. Audi cars tend to be very reliable for the warranty period (coincidence?) This is repeatedly shown in consumer reports. The very first four or five years are good, then the reliability takes a massive fall. All cars have issues, but for the long term, Japanese reliability is hard to hammer. Korean cars have come a long way, but I am not sure if they are at the level of Honda/Toyota/Nissan/Mazda/Subaru just yet.

My practice is that German cars should be leased, never purchased. My fresh car is an Acura TL awd (amazing car for the price, could look better tho’.) We’ll see how it goes.

Actually it’s happened to me too.

Nope. Consumer Reports and JP powers – 6/Ten out of the LEAST reliable cars on the road this year are American. Only reliable American cars? That would be the Japanese cars that are built in America.

I love German cars. They’re beautiful and joy to drive. You just have to deal with all the issues if you want the beauty and joy.. like a dating a model.

Only Dodge/Chrysler is unreliable. Look at JD power two thousand thirteen or any year, three year dependability examine. BMW, AUDI, and VW are consistently, often far below, Ford and Chevy and their brands. This year Buick and Lincoln were even rated being above Honda.

&#8230;It mentions the FR-S in the very first paragraph in bold font under the factory picture.

I’ve just had an Audi A8 TDI sport quattro engine fail with only 110k on the clock. Wish Id checked on the NET before buying it. So Ive just leased a fresh Merc – it will be their problem if it fails, and bought a Volvo. Unnecessary to say Audi are off my Christmas list.

I’m on my third Kia in twelve years. i usually put about 70-80k miles on them before I trade for a fresh.

I’ve had a two thousand three Rio, a two thousand nine Rondo and just took delivery of a two thousand fourteen Rondo. While it is early days for the fresh car, the two previous kias demonstrated excellent reliability during my ownership, the two thousand nine Rondo being essentially a zero defect Vehicle for the 132,000 km I drove it.

from what i read here, that is far better than these “German engineered” cars

latest gti’s have been equiped with water pumps with plastic impellers which are being substituted under warranty. the benefit of a plastic impellar the water pump will leak, but will not have a catastrophic failure; its a feature, not a defect. just get an aftermarket pump if you want to avoid this problem.

It is mostly due to tariff and taxation. Europeans pay tons of taxes and the value added tax, sales tax, luxury tax, etc are all in the price of the car. The cars imported from Europe should be similar in quality and profit margins for the manufacturer are about the same, there could be some gains or losses with currency exchange. German cars made in North America could be a different story because of the supplier source, skilled labor force, etc. But the cars imported from Europe are the same as the ones being sold in Europe.

90’s e36 BMWs used the same plastic impellers with disastrous results, usually after the warratny expired.

Anyone in the car repair business will tell you that BMW used to build reliable 200k mile plus cars until about 1989. They switched their philosophy with fresh models introduced since then to build a car to last through the lease period/warranty.

i have two thousand six ml benz an two thousand four nissan maxima benz is never in the shop the maxima total repair nine thousand four hundred yes nissan is junk

Based on your grammar, I doubt you can afford neither.

Japanese or Korean for reliability.

This is very diffrent way of thinking about German engineering.

I have possessed a MB, BMW, Audi and a VW. I was not glad with any of these vehicles. I will admit the MB had the lowest number of issues. When I lived in Germany I wielded a Honda Accord which was a nice car to drive on the Autobahns. Never had an issue outside of normal maintenance schedules. The Germans have some funny names for their vehicle and most thought the BMW was the worst and then VW. Most of my German friends said that if you are going to own a German car that the only choice was a MB. They would say if you own a German car you will be on a very first name basis with your service manager.

Toasters are reliable

Very first of all if you’re talking about buying a car that’s 0-3 years old all German car warranties are good for four years or 80,000kms bumper to bumper, BMW offers free regular scheduled maintenance, and Audi offers the same thing for $750 called Audicare. If you’re talking about Used Cars then I don’t mind the potential extra cost of maintenance, the potential higher repair bills,and potential less reliabilitiy that may come with some German cars, the reason being is because Japanese cars simply don’t look anywhere near as good, the quality of materials are much lower, and most do not drive even CLOSE to the way most german cars do. So it depends if you’re looking for a cheap method of transportation or driving pleasure and the enjoyment that comes with a superb automobile

Perhaps Acura because I witnessed those things rust pretty badly but never a Lexus. hell i even see sixteen year old Toyota’s with no rust and running like a charm. Working in a auto shop I have already seen a duo toyota sienna’s with 400k+ on the meter! they run forever.

If japan offers lower quality vehicles why do they last so much longer with out any issues? Why do people compare a4’s to a g37x. The a4 is a 200ish hp fwd car that only puts power to the rear wheels after the tires spin. Why does subaru’s awd have lsds and audi uses open diffs untill u get to the s4. Even with the nicer torsen awd sysem audi offers in more expensive models dosent compare to the less expensive subaru system. Why does a three a4 sell for four thousand and three wrx same milage 7500(a4 cost more fresh). Why would anyone buy an r8 when a gtr crushes it at everything and will embark everyday, not to mention seventy four thousand cheaper and why would any one lease an a4 for 3g down three hundred seventy nine a month and Ten,000 miles a year. Call me poor but id rather own a brand fresh impreza for that price and get three hundred thousand miles. No leather but heated seats will do just fine and the oil filter on top of the motor and a slot cut into splash guards for oil cork is a phat plus for me. Have joy switching the oil in that audi, may as well take it to dealership its prob about to break anyway. Spec for spec dollar for dollar audi dosent add up, neither do bmw or mercedes. Sorry, but do your research. The germans laugh at us brand whore americans every time they unload a shipment of $50,000+ turds. Japcrap4life.

So after fifteen years a 20g altima had no issues&#8230;&#8230; Sounds like you got your moneys worth. Do you truly think submerging all that money into an eighty four benz was a good Idea? He prob spent enough money to buy a brand fresh honda, toyota and subaru to keep that thing going. That benz looked nice cause it lived in a garage and was prob waxed and leather treated every weekend, not the case with your moms altima I bet. I’m also willing to bet your friends dad felt he had to keep that thing going becuase of how much he spent when it was fresh. Im not to sure of the specs of that particular benz and dont care to check but i bet your 120flywheel hp sohc civic would give it a run for its money with a16.7 2nd 1/Four&#8230;.. lol&#8230;

Soooo, decrease the cost and yay you got enhanced perf and/or reliability &#128512; More like perf + rel – cost = constant &#128512;

A German car gets you there very first (spectacle) but you will-less home afterwards (Will-less Home or Safe Mode).

I undoubtedly feel the difference when I drive Audi and Japanese cars (Honda, Toyota). The overall convenience, spectacle and road behavior of Audi is superb. Don’t compare R8 and GTR, that’s stupid.

I bought a one thousand nine hundred ninety five Toyota, and it is still running and is in mint condition. Three cars in twelve years? my gosh.

well its actually two cars in twelve years, I only just got the 2014. And they were both in excellent condition when i traded them.

Sorry, but i don’t think Toyota/Honda have anything to speak of on Kias. i’ve possessed both and, while I would consider them very reliable, they were no more reliable than the kias. And when it comes to content for the buck, Kia slays them both lightly.

Lol, Dont compare r8 to gtr. Why? motor trend, motor week and top gear do. I will say german cars feel “sturdy” with the extra weight they carry. I have driven an mb sl500(non amg) mb e450, vw jetta 1.8t audi a41.8t bmw 525i and a few more. 117g for that sl500 and I am less than amazed ive been in swifter hondas worth 6grand. (modded of course). Stock for stock hp vs price def dont see the value. To each their own but I think you have been tricked by badges and what your bar friends say. As far as the rip off that is the audi a4 it understeers more than my hondas did in the snow. An 18g impreza with its n/a 150hp and 5spd trans is far better than the audi a4 and much more predictable in snow, plus it has a functional arm brake to play in the snow. Granted the audi I had used the powerless haldex system and was an automatic (most german car owners are lazy and drive autos) and I have yet to attempt the torsen system which I know is way better but I know it won’t come close to the subaru awd system and balance. Yes subaru and mitsu dropped out of rally but whens the last time you’ve seen an audi. You cant reminisce because audi left spectacle behind to apeal to lazy drivers audi’s entry is now skoda. I am willing to bet none of you snob nose audi owners would be caught dead in a skoda even however its a superior performer. I am driver oriented and joy factor and reliabilty play a big part for me when picking a car. German cars don’t treat the manhandle with out a decent amount of money dropped in them. My very first car was a 88crx hf and I switched the non synthetic oil every 10-13000 miles (not proud of that) and got 210,000 miles out of it b4 a suburban crushed it. The reliabilty of german cars is not there. Anyone who spends over 30g for a 200hp 4cyl needs to get their head checked even if it has four rings on the grill and non heated leather seats lol people&#8230;&#8230;.

So, what you’re telling me, is that I should trust your practice more than mine? That’s stupid.

I will trust top gear motor trend and motor week over anything you ever have to say since you cant even drive a manul and have never turned off traction controll in your life. I think you may be down with the syndrome. Also having pro driving practice and training gives me an edge over anything you have to say. Love you open diffs in your understeering automatic audi albeit I bet you’ve never shoved it except fot that one time on a straight shot on the on ramp. Do your research lol. America is vulnerable&#8230;.. Keep railing your brakes america.

My last comment got flagged or something and did not post, not sure why. The brief version is google carthrottle awd test

Yea, another British hater. Where is you car industry genius. Germans sell millions of cars and I understand your jealousy&#8230;.

I have no Idea what your talking about. I live in america and our car industry is a joke but im not incharge of it and I’m not here promoting american cars. A few are ok if you got big money but they last about as long as your german turds and are way cheaper to fix&#8230;.. British hater?? I told you to google carthrottle awd test so you can see the mechanical diffrences inbetween awd systems displaying you how far ahead japan is over german cars awd systems, hp per liter, reliability, resale value and all around bang for your dollar. All the germans every did was cause ww2 and they failed. You obviously know nothing about cars and I’m sorry you got tricked into a 40,000 jetta with an audi badge, betterluck next time. I’m done attempting to help you understand. However if I ever come across anyone looking for do it yourself tips on how to gauge out their own @ssH*ole or bybass their gag reflex I’ll send em your way.

Well I think your last comment illustrates how much your opinion should be respected&#8230;.What did the Germans give us&#8230;.the automobile for one&#8230;lol&#8230;.I have wielded twenty two cars in my brief life&#8230;.Toyota,Honda,Nissan,Ford,Chevy,Jeep,BMWs,VWs,Lotus,Triumph,Original mini&#8230;..Driven many more&#8230;.Reliability based owners satifaction is very subjective but Consumer Reports and JD Powers use these. I have fiends who have poured 10s of thousands of dollars into four/five year old, low milage,babied Toyotas and Hondas and swear they are the most reliable cars on the face of the earth. They are blessed as pigs in&#8230;mud. Friends with German cars&#8230;they tend to be my picky friends&#8230; In reality my Lotus is most likely my most reliable car&#8230;. but routine maintenance includes anually, taking all the swittches apart , cleaning them and puting them back anually&#8230;its in the

So, thank you for the advice. I read what carthrottle suggest for AWD car: “For areas with truly horrendous weather, I’d go for a Torsen Audi, any Subaru, or an xDrive BMW – in theory, they’ll give you the thickest advantage traction-wise.”

As I said, no Honda or Toyota but Audi, BMW and only Subaru from Japanese cars.

My mum wields a crimson one thousand nine hundred eighty two Toyota Land Cruiser. She is the only possessor since fresh. It’s only needed the usual stuff, oil switches and filters, break pads, wheel bearings, tires, and some derusting of the assets&#8230; Three.5L Diesel keeps on going and isn’t smokey unless you do a cold embark in winter without using the glow butt-plugs very first &#128578;

That is Japanese reliability!

I’ve been driving since ’86. I embarked with VW Rabbits and had four VWs after that. Each one was more unreliable than the previous one. The pinnacle of unreliability was my ’95 VW Passat VR6. It could not go one month without being in the shop. I sold it with less than 40K miles on it.

I then switched to Mercedes with a ’96 C220. Good car. Bought it used (Four years) and drove it another nine years. My moms friend still has it and is pushing 250K miles. After this I bought a used C320 Wagon which fell to lumps after a 100K miles; ps pump, water pump, shocks, struts, catalytic converters, MAF, crank position sensors, fuel pump, fuel level sending units, etc. My current vehicle is a two thousand eight ML three hundred twenty CDI. The truck has less than 50K miles and I’ve spent $4K on out of warranty repairs substituting oil seals, tail light seals that leaked and fried my lift gate motor (motor is $1200), etc. and I’ve been fighting with MB for seven months to fix the rust issues.

At one point, we had nine MBs in our family. We are down to six and dumping. They are excellent driving and looking cars, but they no longer last longer than any other car for 1/Two the money. The days of an MB being just cracked in at 100K miles is a distant memory.

I bought a two thousand thirteen Hyundai Genesis Three.8 for the price of a four year old E350 with 60-70K miles. I could not be more satisfied. It drives superb and the build quality good. The Koreans are catching up. After driving MBs for thirteen years, there’s not much that’s missing on the Genesis that I miss driving. There was a day and night difference inbetween driving an MB or BMW compared to a Japanese or Korean car ten years ago. Not any more.

“German engineering means overly complicated systems that are prone to violating when using cheaper parts.” That by itself is not deal breaker if you look after your customer. They are too arrogant to do that, which is why I switched.

I know a top mechanic who has had his own shop since 1980. I witnessed an add for a MB once looked truly nice but he told me to stay away from used MB. Sometimes you luck out and get a reliable one but more often than not you’ll be getting major headaches. Their spectacle is legendary but their reliability less so

German cars seem to use a lot of plastic and poor quality rubber in the engine bay. I had a BMW 540i which was reliable till around 50k, then one by one things began to disintegrate.

Plastic parts that failed shouldn’t even be plastic to begin with: plastic coolant expansion tank bursted. Plastic edge of radiator bursted. Plastic pulley in power window lifter shattered. Engine timing chain guide shattered.

Then there are the rubber parts becoming hard and brittle causing: valve cover gasket leak, valley pan gasket leak, PCV valve failure due to ripped rubber membrane, power steering hosepipe leak, heater core hosepipe leak, vacuum leak due to crack in air intake boot, transmission rear main seal leak.

Sold the 540i at 90k miles.

But a wiper for an s class cost $80, Honda $Ten.

My one thousand nine hundred ninety nine Audi A4 was OK, but not as reliable as my other two Hondas. The Audi came with plastic lower suspension arms that I originally had to pay to substitute at about 70,000 miles which indeed disapointed me. Audi later came out with a recall, and I had kept all my reciepts and was reimbersed the $800.00 it had cost the dealer to fix the problem.

So true the Germans build beautiful cars with fine treating and spectacle but what good are all those traits when half of the time they’re in the shop? I think they are way over engineered. Sensors to monitor sensors to name a few

I am driving a one thousand nine hundred ninety nine E39 BMW 540i for about ten years. This is a superbly built vehicle (they were made 1997-2003), lots of V8 power and economical. In 240,000Kms, I have substituted water pump, Crankcase ventilation valve and fuel pump, DIY. Total cost about $700. Very glad with the quality and would buy another one tomorrow.

Germans are smarter for using cheap plastic parts on the engine bay. I own the famous Audi TT Mk1. And yes, it’s a money pit. I substitute a sensor or engine part every month -most recently the alternator and now the fuel level sender is acting up.

The TT is famous not mainly for its looks but for a duo of class-action lawsuits. Germans get away with making lemons, because they’re Germans. And German luxury basically mean to turn a blind eye and ready your wallet because it’s “luxury.”

Their cars are the trojan horses to millions of bank accounts world broad. You keep going back to the dealer long after it’s paid off. $$$ And that’s why German’s are brainy. These cars made them rich. Germany is so rich that they can support the failed economies of their fellow EU states. SO when you buy a German car, you’re helping feed the people of the failed socialist states of Spain, Portugal, Italy, ang Greece.

I have yet to see an SLS spontaneously combust.

The GT-R, whilst a good car, isn’t by any means reliable, reminisce the transmission issues?

That’s not even a very first generation iDrive in the picture&#8230;

It’s a lifestyle to buy things that are unreliable?

I understand if it’s a Porsche or Bentley, but lexus is same thing as mercedes luxury boat. Even now the fresh gs three hundred fifty or ISF is up there in joy factor with BMW, While retaining better resale and providing you less headaches.

BMW and Mercedes suppose to be reliable and a solid car, not a snub factor. Or feeding people around the world.

I guess if you have money to burn its a choice, but for most it’s a researched decision.

I have possessed a few German cars in the last ten years. My practices are not any far off from others. My very first BMW had one more year of warranty left and man am I appreciative it did. From brake caliper going bad to all sorts of other electronics began to just go with no notice.

I bought my other two Germans – Audi S4 right after warranty ended. Previous owners gave me a book powerful enough to be held by two arms which listed all of their receipts from dealerships (under warranty), with all the work performed. Thinking that I may be fortunate and maintenance is already taken care of, I bought them. Boy was I a idiot.

Very first off, there is a reason why German cars lose so much value over the years. Go look at original cost and then the cost after three or so years. A $150k Mercedes can lose up to $100k in value over four years. There is a reason why forums are packed with questions/diy/tech pages for these cars.

My dad’s van – Honda Odyssey (not as much joy I agree), has only had window motor switch go bad – $65. While the Audi RS4 has horrible Carbon cleaning that needs to be done every Two,000 miles. Google it. Newer BMW mini coopers are the same and so are the three series. Are you kidding me? Dealers charge anywhere from $600 – $1200 depending on the car.

While the German cars are a lot of joy to drive, they are not Porsche, Lamborghinis or R8 or GTR or ZR1 or Ferrari for that matter. If I have to go on a tour, you better be sure that it will give you so much getting there that you are roped to “gutless back home”.

On one palm Audi advertised that their B6 Audi S4 has chain timing to reduce maintenance costs. Well, what good does that do when chain tensioner can break and require a $1,000 kit to rebuild + labor. Google it.

It seems that a shop around the corner will fix anything that comes up in a van or camry or maxima or accord, but if something happens to the German, then you either have to find a dealer or that German car specific shop – lighter to find in larger States than in smaller ones.

If I had spent the amount of money I did on my cars, on my house, I would be living in an all electronically managed back yard with a fountain and heated driveway. Yes, I am done with Germans. I know they look awesome and feel awesome, but not worth it. If you can afford it, go for it I guess.

Google “carbon cleaning audi”, “plastic thermostat audi”, “plastic valve cover crack bmw”, “chain tensioner audi s4”, “bmw E46 M3 subframe crack”, “mini cooper carbon cleaning”, “smg transmission failure bmw”, “bmw switch sides transmission failure”

After twenty five years of possessing Infiniti’s, I just leased a VW Tiguan. I was tired of lodging on spectacle in favor of reliability, but the thing that eventually coaxed me to take the risk on the Tiguan is the fact that Consumer Reports recommended it this year. While its predicted reliability is just “average”, this rating needs to be taken in context. A rating of “Average” means it has been compared to all the other cars being tested, not that it has met some kind of independent standard of what “Average” should be. Given that all cars have been steadily improving in reliability in latest decades (and are continuing to do so even now) what is considered “average” today is truly pretty darned good in the scheme of things. This is not the 1990s anymore when the big Japanese automakers were a lot more reliable than their competition. The gap inbetween “average” and “above average” has shrunk to almost infinitesmal proportions in some cases. The ratings will not reflect that fact, however. So that’s why Consumer Reports recommends the Tiguan despite its “average” predicted reliability. Because they know that today’s “average” is most likely more like yesterday’s “above average”.

German cars carry many parts made all over the world. Japanese cars carry parts that are from Japan for the most part. They just can’t contest for reliability.

I have a VW Golf Mk4, and it’s got over 204,000km on the clock. – the engine still pulls like a train, and keeps endlessly going on and on, the dashboard still looks like the day it came out of the factory back in 2001.

The only things I had to do were related to it’s thirteen year life-span so far, i.e. servicing, timing belts, etc..

Not a single speck of rust to be seen, and the gearbox is solid.

Before it, I had a Toyota Vitz Automatic (Japanese Market Yaris), and the CVT Gearbox was about to suck it’s self up at 34,000km, and commenced to corrode around the chassis, Parts cost the bloody earth, and they were cheaply made. And most were made in China.

I wouldn’t judge too quickly on used German cars, most are driven by racer boys that drive them into the ground.

I’m talking from a European Market Perspective, and I cannot judge what the American practice is like.

Don’t knock Subaru. there damn good cars.

Hyundai? Korean cars&#8230;hammering the Japanese? bwhahahaa!

Going by Japanese manufacturers alone, I would put Infiniti/Nissan towards the bottom of the group in terms of reliability. I think what was providing Japanese manufacturers their reputation was mainly the reliability of Honda and Toyota’s vehicles. I think, loosely, that the 2nd tier would be Subaru, Mazda and third tier would be Mitsubishi and Nissan.

“quality of materials are much lower” YEAH that is why fail LESS in reliability. More quality = more failure. LOL

Good Article, Thanks this is just what I was looking for!

German products, I find are rather poor, I have yet to find any single German product that has excelled and the majority have been plain bad. From Bosch gardening equipment that lasted only weeks before falling to chunks to Sennheiser Headphones that failed after less than three months (several pairs), Continental tyres that crack and wear out LONG before they are supposed to, German made Michellin ones that do the same, BMWs that are tired, worn out bangers in less than 70k miles with sagging seats, dirty, worn out looking trim etc Constant and unforgivable electrical problems, VWs, Mercs and Audis are all the same, OVER RATED JUNK! My Alfa Romeo is ten years old, has 160k miles on the clock and still drives excellent, EVERYTHING still works, leather is all fine and it has never cracked down&#8230; pity the same can’t be said of my last car, an E38 with only 88k miles&#8230;

I had a Mercedes Benz E350 Sedan and the engine almost blew itself up at one point. My Mercedes Benz E350 Sedan had so many maintenance problems, such as requiring wheel alignments every three months. Eventually, my Mercedes Benz died after only 30,000 miles.

On the other arm, my Lexus IS two hundred fifty C F Sport is very reliable. My Honda Accord is very reliable as well.

Lexus, Infiniti, and Acura are more convenient and supply better spectacle than Audi. They are more reliable as well. The difference in convenience inbetween Acura/Honda and Audi isn’t even that noticeable. In addition, Audi usually costs $45,000 or more, so Audi better sell comfy cars. Otherwise, what justifies their ridiculous prices?

I meant “the difference in convenience inbetween Toyota/Honda and Audi isn’t even that noticeable”.

Even Honda, Nissan, and Toyota have engines with higher quality than Mercedes Benz, BMW, or Audi.

Now, if we compare these German brands to the luxury versions of these Japanese car manufacturers, the Germans undoubtedly lose. Going by specs and reviews, Lexus, Infiniti, and Acura are superior to Mercedes Benz, BMW, or Audi.

In my book, the cars with the lowest quality are the ones that are the least reliable, which are, of course, the German ones.

The article is flawed from its initial premise, because it _assumes_ that “engineering” can only mean reliability. It attempts to recover from this logical fallacy by tap-dancing back on spectacle, but in failing to very first define and interpret, it remains an irrevocably flawed premise.

gravely thank you I was looking at a sl65 amg after reading your post I know that I don’t want to be the proud possessor of a $230,000 chunk of junk

Porsche and Lamborghini are Volkswagen group cars you loser .. The fact that your dad drives a honda odyssey van explains it all, stupid people shouldn’t be permitted to drive German cars, 105k on my two thousand six gti and not a single problem, because I can drive, get maintenance on time, and don’t hammer things to shit like the rest of this forsaken country

Just glad that all of these people have problems with their German cars , my entire family drives German with minimal issues if ever. Stick to your “reliable” cars , if you can’t treat treating something correctly, don’t own it, drive a Honda. Usually they say it’s the driver not the car, sensitive spectacle focused cars aren’t meant to be driven by idiots.

I have friends that swear by and treat their German cars like the sensitive little Frauleinen that they are. Regardless of treatment, I see electrical gremlins abound and other issues that are wholly avoidable, but not-so-much due to poor material choices (see plastic cooling fans for example).

There is a major difference in driving a BMW, Mercedes or Lexus, sorry but Lexus does not compare for drivability. 2nd Toyota and Lexus both lost the largest law suit for cars driving off on their own that they denied. Not sure how that makes the most reliable car. Sounds like an 80’s Audi. I have a Honda pilot as a beach mobile, BMW X1 and mercedes e250 4matic diesel. So far the e250 diesel has been the most reliable by far. The pilot has has many issues from a trunk latch not sealing to a leaky sun roof to rear passenger door treat stopped functioning to my rear back up camera not functioning every time Sirius radio determines to upload channels, still not stationary waiting two years for an update to seat belt recall to a coil recall and the car is a 2012. By far out of the three the one in the shop the most, people also say maitainence on German cars is much more but on my e250 I spend about $350 a year for its service, free on the X1 for four years and the pilot has had two oil switches a year at fifty five each and a awd flued switch service at $500 so $610 this year and it’s only at 37,000 miles. So not sure whose coming up with these reliability reports but the e250 has never seen the shop for anything but it’s annual service and the bmw had one recall and it’s service while the Honda has seen the shop about seven times this year. I had a Audi q7 before and I’d say that was the least reliable of the grouping, constant electrical issues. I think I never had all my lights working on the car at once after the very first year. I think each car by each manufacture should most likely be judge on its own merit, German built German cars usually are good from my practices while Mexican or us built German cars like the ml series or the x series or q series are similar in reliability to American cars where they are built just like American built Japanese cars like the pilot. While Japanese built Lexus in Japan and mercedes German built e two hundred fifty are built at a higher standard. Sad for the US that our standards are not equal to many other countries, look Chrysler and ford are always at the bottom, with some gm products close by. Also reminisce that the price difference from a benz cla to a Toyota camary is about the same, low 30’s and the benz has awd and many more safety features so not sure how they can produce a cheap car like that with so many features without cutting some corners. So you get what you pay for at times, don’t think that a cheap entry benz will be as reliable as a German built $60,000 plus one.

The lawsuits you mentioned against Lexus don’t even compare to all the lawsuits and lemon law court deeds taken against Mercedes Benz over the years. Year after year Consumer Reports states Lexus is the best luxury brand in the world..yet you overlook that..just like you overlook the uncountable google search results showcasing all the electrical and other problems MB has had over the years..just because Lexus had a duo of lawsuits..which don’t compare to the hundreds MB has had..or all the recalls MB has had. Go ahead and disregard everything this article stated..and keep loving your troubled MB brand. But for the rest of us who have possessed a MB and are sick and tired of all the problems with it..we say “enough is enough” and will never purchase another one again.

those gizmos made in china

what else is fresh?

Very first off, I think everyone should own own a German spectacle car, once. I did, thinking that I got a hell of a deal with an two thousand three a6 Two.7T with 50K for $12K. I loved driving my car and the spectacle was 2nd to none. With that said, there is a responsibility to wielding one of these cars and that comes at a price, a big price. Maintenance. They are not cheap to own and yeah, the Germans automakers need to address this before I determine to give them another shot at my hard earned money. I am hoping that I see improvements in RELIABILITY and maintenance cost. After pulling down $900 a month to keep the warning lights off every month for twelve months, I had enough. Traded it in for a car for my wifey. She wished a MB E-350 awd. We lodged for a Lexus GS350 AWD. Not a totally inspiring drive, but it works for her. I took back the two thousand two Ford Explorer with 130K miles and drove it for a year before buying my two thousand seven Infiniti G35X with 50K miles on it. The Explorer reset my expectations that it was nice to get into a car and just drive it without that sick feeling you get when a warning light comes on. The G35x has had no problems, just regular affordable maintenance. Am I advocating everyone buying an Infiniti? No, as mentioned earlier, I am hopeful that someday I can own another German car. I miss driving my Audi, but not enough to take on cost to own one. It’s why I read the article and suspect that everyone on this trail has as well. We all deep down know that to own these cars are an expensive initial investment, but do they have to proceed to be? I would love to hear back from people who can tell me what German cars are worth taking a chance on that don’t have a history of reliability issues. I just don’t think they are being made yet.

The fact that you have to call people idiots to make your point shows insecurity. Some of us have graduated past the high school playground and argue based on points. If I have to buy a car and treat it like a prissy little fucktoy I will pass.

I was fooled by German reliability myth and bought a very expensive ten year old A170 CDI for a whopping nine thousand €uros (only sixty five thousand km on speedometre), in Portugal. Soon after the automatic gearbox embarked “F” failing. Before this one I always had Japanese cars, maximum parts made in Japan, that is. After this one, if I sustain it, there will be NO german cars for me, no korean, no french or italian junk, but only Made in Japan and onçly known brands such as Honda or Nissan. I also do not trust Toyota for certain reasons where their agarge in USA attempted to kill me by letting me drive with a car without liquids, no oil, no water in the engine at all and the engine was only linked with one screw. No joke! And Mazda has a bad record of failing gear boxes, a LOT and very lean exterior and interior, like paper! So&#8230; Honda or Nissan for me. Maybe also Skoda, they say, good cars? That’s it!

I am driving a one thousand nine hundred ninety eight Nissan March K10 that I bought for one thousand five hundred euro. It is a superbly built vehicle as it has 260,000 KMs and I just switching oil every five thousand KMs.

I have a two thousand three Fucktoy 4Runner V8 gas, 187,000 miles without a single problem, bought it fresh. Routine maintenance is it. Paint looks good except on the plastic fender flairs. The engine, seems as strong as it did at 35K. I’d like to get a fresh car but the frugal side of me says why. Never wielded a German. was thinking about a BMW, but after reading these post, the 4Runner may be my only car for some time to come. I would never have traded it in regardless.

tell that to my pals well maintained two thousand ten STI with a gargled motor at 45,000 miles it could use some love.

Once upon a time (50s, 60s) German lenses for cameras were very regarded, Carl Zeiss and Leitz for example. Today they are priced way above their Japanese counterparts, but qualitywise the best professional lenses from Canon and Nikon are at least as good, and sometimes better. Optics aside, German camera and lens companies are still stuck in manual concentrate cameras and lenses of the 70s and 80s. If ‘Made in Germany’ is significant to you for satisfaction of ownership, go ahead and pay the thousands for twenty year old technology.

I believe a lot of this has to do with Germany’s march toward socialism and the welfare state in latest decades. Their labor is intensely unionized and labor cost artificially inflated. Their is nothing special about German labor compared to, say Japanese labor. So guess where companies cut costs to accommodate labor.

most likely hammers the hell out of it lol

I know that from what I have read. German cars are well put together, and they have good ideas in many departments in other categories besides reliability. Up until about 2000, all of the German cars were somewhat effortless to work on. I helped my dad switch the serpentine belt on a two thousand one VW Passat, and holy shit!! In five hours, we eventually had the entire front end of the car apart, just for a timing belt! Now, my dad used to have a one thousand nine hundred eighty two VW Rabit Diesel that was crimson and had some custom-made diffusers on, etc. Kinda a neat car. He switched the four speed manual to a five speed. And square headlights and grille to the German circle ones. This was back then, today. Automakers do this on purpose so you HAVE to take your vehicle in. Just to get it worked on. I am presently an possessor of a one thousand nine hundred ninety eight Toyota T100 (pickup truck Three.Four V6) and it is my daily driver. I picked it up about four mos ago with 220,000 miles! Holder said it ran flawlessly, only need a timing belt and oil switches. That’s it! Its a bread and butter car, with optional power windows. But people can customize their rail based on their taste. If i was rich, I would buy a German car, or a fresh one anyway. However, if i bought a German car right now. It would be a VW MK3 (Golf or Jetta) or older, because those you can actually work on. Like I said, mid 90s and older you can work on by yourself.

I agree entire heartedly. Right now I would love to get an two thousand five E46 but after wielding hondas and presently a DD camry maintenance has only been switching oil, brakes and tires. Earnestly these cars have been bullet-proof. Test drivng an A6 and a bmw 330i zhp duo weeks back still on fence but switches when see an article like this. I think everyone should at least test drive a german engineered car but they got to do something about the reliability!

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